초롱이 ★  ごきげんよう

What fluency means…

Posted in Japanese, korean by choronghi on February 18, 2012

I was watching the sbs kpopstar show and this thought i had in the past came back because of this one scene. in this scene, after getting criticized like crazy for being idiot, michelle goes into the loser room. She says to the guy who was already there mal shi ki jima 말시키지마.

Some people who commented on the video were like omg she’s so bitchy. which I sorta agree with but at the same time I can see why she’s in a horrible mood. But anyways that means in literal translation “don’t make me talk”.

말 = talking

시키지 -> 시티다  means to make someone do

and if you attach 마 with the verb conjugated like that, it means DON’T.

I just thought of how you’d express similar thing in japanese or english. I think in Japanese it would be hanashi kakanaide or hanashi kakeru 話しかけないで 話しかけるな

And in english it would be like… don’t talk to me. or  I don’t want to talk. or leave me alone. don’t bother me.

SO what ‘im thinking becoming fluent in languages is very very hard in the sense that you have to throw away your thought process if you’re gonna try to accept the thought process that is in the other language. Like in this example…

korean : you tell the person to not make you talk and with that phrase the guy knows that that means he shouldn’t talk to her. ultimately, the only way for him to honor her wishes is to not talk to her. I just find korean interesting is because there’s the literal meaning and the intended/comprehended/mutual understood meaning and they both understand the literal and intended meaning since they’re both fluent in korean

Japanese: hanashi kakeru is two vebs joined together. hanasu = talk. kakeru means a lotf of things http://jisho.org/words?jap=kakeru&eng=&dict=edict . in this case i would be 掛ける. so hanashikakeru would mean  talk to someone… there’s a better explanation/meaning that is on the tip of my tongue or my brain yet it’s just stuck there! i’m saying this cause hanashikakeru is different from hanasu in the sense that for hanashikakeru means you’re talking to someone. ugh. oh wait, maybe “starting up a conversation” is a good way to explain hanashikakeru.  😦 so anyways attach -na and you get “don’t talk to me”

or wait here’s a good way to explain it

hanasu na = don’t talk. so  you’d use this if you didn’t want to hear the other person talk…. like their voices etc. there’s also shaberu na.

hanashikakeru na = don’t talk to me

english: don’t talk to me, don’t bother me both involve usage of a verb. first one is to talk, to leave alone, to bother.

The interesting part in japanese you can say, leave me alone or don’t bother me or i don’t want to talk or don’t talk. But people wouldn’t use it just because hanashikakeru na is the better choice  of words. it’s more specific. i guess someone would say leave me alone if they wanted to be really bitchy or in a horrible mood.

For korean vs japanese you can tell if you direct translate from one to the other for expressing this idea, you will sound funny because they use different expressions for communicating their lack of desire to engage in conversation/small talk. Sometimes when you do korean and japanese direct translation, it actually works and you get amazed by how similar they are but sometimes they completely different ways to express it.

SO FROM this example and other examples, from what i’ve gathered,i ‘ve come to the conclusion that  i have a set fundamental way of thinking in english and so if i try to speak japanese, even though i’m not directly translating from english persay, i’m still at the core thinking like an american/english-speaking person so i feel trapped/frustrated in japanese with writing lang-8 for example. i don’t know if you can tell from my entries, which are really long, but that is how i feel. What I’m tihnking, I know all the japanese that i need to express myself for the most part in japanese but i’m thinking in a english-speaker way on a fundamental level so i would give up and leave out certain thoughts/ideas that i wanted to express because i couldn’t express as satisfactorily in  japanese as i would in english.  That’s also one of the reasons why it’s important to try to get ajatt into learning environment… so you can sorta “forget” or “disregard’ your original language (just because the diff. languages expresses things in completely different ways). you have to let that go or ignore it for a while/really get immersed with L2, if you’re gonna even attempt to get fluent at the other one because you have to change your fundamental way of thinking… i don’t know if the word is “change” since there are those bipolar bilingual people with the two personalities. maybe the more proper word is to stretch it… make it more flexible, promiscuous、trashy, vicarious lol.

I love AJATT for what it is and I use it for what it’s worth (not all of it because it’s a little hardcore)

Oh I used the word speak, but it’s more talking to myself or writing the lang-8 entry. maybe talking to actual japanse speakers will help fix it. it’s just a fundamental thing that’s been engrained for 10 yeasr so it’s sorta hard to completely disregard/not access that while trying to output japanese because i feel it’s senzai ishiki = subconscious (out my control….)

Well I’m aware of these issues in languages and i  try my best to keep myself open and try to not access other the language or the way of thinking that is used in the other language that’s not japanese but i feel like it’s subconscious which is why it needss to be ajatt or akatt.

I suppose enough hard-core/continous immersion  with L2 accompanied by discontact from l2 for ___ amount of time will get you to the level where you’re not influenced by your subconscious. obviously , don’t separate for so long to the point you forget L1. khatz said he did that for 18 months, and he was fine. since he was fluent in english, it wouldn’t be hard to regain back the english.?

But like I said before, I’m more interested in comprehension then speaking to be honest so it doesn’t bother me too much… esepcially for japanese because the talk/variety shows are too damn interesting and there’s a shitload of them.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: